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- Panties still bunched huh :) Conversing with you Dawn would be much like asking a person who spoke and read only the English language to recount the plot of a novel which they had just ''read'', written in French. Case in point, in all of your posts you have focused on the personal event which I shared, and have gave a completely different account of the event than what was supplied. In short, you read, but you fail to understand and to grasp the event as I described it, and instead reformed the words in your silly little head to make the event read the way you wanted it to read, instead of the way it actually was. Reread the event, slowly if need be and you'll find you error.
As for the Ramos and Compean saga, you have done much the same, you have read and confused the much hype surrounding the event,and confused that with ''fact''. Ramos and Compean are much more a pair of idiots, than that of being ''heros'' , however with the latter of the pair being more so. You hold your views based on hype and confused hype at that. Mine is based upon logic and fact. Fact is they were convicted. Fact is they both are adult persons, and one's which were defended at trial by attorneys of their own choosing. Fact, neither the news media, the public nor their union were much involved until well after they had been convicted. The belated media, public and Congressional uproar after the fact, and directed toward that of a Pardon for the pair, instead of directed toward righting the deplorable mess of El Paso Sector and the Border Patrol on a whole, is much like continuing to bail out water of a sinking ship, instead of plugging the hole.
As I have stated prior, Ramos and Compean will probably have their sentences overturned upon appeal, not much doubt in my mind about that. I also believe had they have taken a different route than which they have, that the Judge would probably have left them out on bail during the process. However they choose the route they have taken, just as they chose those own actions during the actual event which landed them in the mess they are in. To my knowledge the two have never excepted any responsibility for their actions, and have instead tried to pass the blame off on any and all others. Some that blame does in fact stick to some of those which it were direct toward, others it does not. In fact the only crime which I myself have ever believed the two guilty of would be knowingly disregarding a wounded person, the one Ramos shot. Contrary to what apparently many others feel, I believe Ramos had to know, or should have known, that his bullet had struck the person. He in fact fired only one round, and that is most telling in my mind. But the real clincher is the letter written by his father in-law to his Congressman. In his detailed account of the event it dispels for me any thought contrary to Ramos not knowing that he had wounded the person...an unarmed person. Since it has become known about the many others who were present at the scene, and of those who testified at trial, it is quite clear that Ramos and Compean are not the only idiots involved in the event of that day. However that is understandable by knowing El Paso sector as well as I know it. It has in fact been ran by one inept CPA after another for many years now. It is a cesspool within a cesspool that has done nothing but to get worse as time has passed. Had this media and public outcry over the fate of these two agents/convicts have been directed toward the actual cause of the event as it came about, and as it had unfolded, then good would probably have come from it. However that is not the case as it now is. This uproar has and is having the opposite effect, it is in fact empowering the crooks, and has created a conducive atmosphere for the many questionable agents now among the agency, as well as for those soon to arrive from the mass hiring which is in effect.
Undoubtedly Dawn you'll read what you want to read into my words here...so go for it :) (Posted on March 20, 2007, 7:29 am John)
- tell me john... what part of this do you not understand??? This is an invasion by America. These “workers” were 30 feet into our country…..who knows what they were up to, or how many millions of poor Americans might have crossed when we weren’t looking. We are outraged that the United States Government would allow such a thing to happen and are hoping our friend and compadre Juanny Sutton will look into arresting and convicting these lawbreakers.
now i DO NOT recall Americans invading Mexico.. it is the other way around.... Americans crossing over their borders??? HARDLY... like i said... it is the OTHER way around.. they call sutton their friend and compadre... QUIT assuming i don't know squat... evidently YOU did not do YOUR homework... Mexican authoritities were NOT there.. how in the hell would they know if Ramos and Compean were in Mexico or not?? the answer is.. THEY DONT... everything is held on the words of a drug smuggler... EVEN YOURS...
In a statement, the US Ambassador to Mexico Tony Garza said: “The US is sensitive to Mexican concerns… [and] has the deepest respect for the integrity of the sovereignty of Mexican soil”. evidently no respect for the United States soil though... Jorge Zermeno, the speaker of the Mexican lower house, said: “The lower house condemns the violation of Mexican territory by personnel building the metal barrier between the cities of Douglas, Arizona and Agua Prieta, Sonora, who were lead by US Secretary for Homeland Security Michael Chertoff.”
however they do not condemn the violation of illegal aliens from mexico into the United States..
"I believe Rene Sanchez acted as a 'double agent' in the Ramos-Compean case," Joe Loya, father of Ramos's wife Monica, told WND. "He was doing everything he could to protect his life-long friend, Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila, but at the same time he was working with Johnny Sutton to make sure Ramos and Compean were convicted." Vasquez originally confirmed Compean's claim he had made a radio call asking for backup after a van driven by suspected drug smuggler Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila twice tripped border sensors. In court, however, Vasquez changed his story.
"Arturo Vasquez, David Jacquez and Oscar Juarez were given immunity because they were willing to tell the story to the jury that Sutton needed told," Ramirez told WND. "They all lied. Juarez even contradicted himself on the stand, changing his lies as he went along. Why were none of the other agents charged with crimes," Ramirez continued, "when the DHS memo clearly states that others assisted in destroying evidence of the shooting?" "When you give deals to witnesses like immunity, the government usually gets the testimony (it wants)," Rep. Ted Poe, R-Texas, told the Daily Bulletin. "This case is a perfect example." now I am not condoning getting rid of evidence... I am however stating a FACT... TOO MANY PEOPLE LIED AT THE DAMN TRIAL!!! Davila is a damn drug smuggler... am I suppose to believe him??? surely you don't expect me to... his friend Rene Sanchez??? that is laughable... the dude lied about agents to protect his child hood friend that breaks our laws.. the border patrolmen that said clearly that they lied on the stand??? Tell me John.. exactly who am I suppose to believe??? YOU???? HARDLY!!! Hell you think you are god yourself and everyone else is ignorant. Now I never said a damn word about your intelligence, but since you want to go around name calling everyone in the world that does not agree with you... YOU ARE THE MOST IGNORANT, SELF INDULGENT. ill informed and illiterate... cute... I am not ill-informed... I just know the facts, and you are pissed as hell that not everyone thinks as you do... Illiterate??? EVIDENTLY I CAN READ!!!... I GRADUATED.. AND I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT... YOU on the other hand... let me give you the definition of illiterate... and after i do... realize the ignorance and illiteracy of your comments on the border patrol when you pulled out a damn gun...showing or marked by a lack of acquaintance with the fundamentals of a particular field of knowledge ... now to most people's knowledge... when a law official tells you to put your hands up... YOU DO IT... not doing so shows extreme IGNORANCE.. Had you been shot... it would NOT have been the Border Patrolmens fault... it would have been yours and your friends.. Since you are so eager to make people believe that these two great men were guilty of such wrong doing... lets break down your act of wrong doing... erratic driving.. your words "I myself gunned our engine to abort the car's attempt, and at the same time made a hard turn to the right to make a 270 degree turn so that the other car would be in our headlights." let me see.. that in itself is enough to have someone assume that you are breaking the law... did you even stop to think that maybe these men were on a call? Maybe their office called them to go to a certain place that needed their attention? and you like an IDIOT made them have to deal with MORONS instead of the job they were called to do... and now to the gun issue... once again your words.. "As I was making the turn my friend was readying his 12 gage shotgun." COMPLETE stupidity... what if it had been drug dealers?? They would have shot you and put you on the hood of their car as a trophy... and in your words again...As I completed the 270 and was now facing the roadway and the attacking car broadside on it's right side, we immediately became aware that it was in fact a Border Patrol unit! that right there should have made the both of you feel ignorant as hell... lets see... we have more too and in your words... shows how completely absurd you are "the agent on that side was falling out with his gun in hand, although barely. Two agents which had done a very stupid thing then started screaming for us to not move and to show our hands, with guns pointed on us. After a few very tense moments of them screaming and of myself screaming back explaining that both by partner's hands and mine had guns in them with the hammers back, and that we were not going to drop them and take a chance of a round going off, " now they had every right to pull guns on you and your friend... dont you think??? and you say they are stupid? they see someone driving like and idiot and in a threatening manner towards anyone that may be comming down the road... then you refuse to put your hands up... now you two had noticed that they were border patrolmen yet you cocked your guns?? THAT IS AS STUPID AS STUPID CAN GET.. had they shot you, they would have been in the right PERIOD... now Ramos and Compean deserve to be free... I dont care if you like it or not. You have shown everyone on here that you are about as worthless as they come. Go ahead John... make another derogatory comments about myself.. others who speak on here... or the border patrol... I have nothing more to say to you... in fact I find it rather sad that someone would allow you to speak such nonsense towards our country and the citizens in it. I am not an attention hound like yourself.. so I will NOT be responding to any more of your bull... FREE RAMOS AND COMPEAN
(Posted on March 8, 2007, 3:19 pm Dawn)
- John grow up already. Obviously you are so one sided that you could NOT have one clue in this world what is going on... LAY OFF THE DRUGS DUDE!!! (Posted on March 8, 2007, 12:21 pm Dawn)
- I first found the confused post of ''Dawn'' last evening and posted a reply at that time. However for some reason that reply has as of this witting has not been posted here.
Dawn it's quite clear from the ranting contained in your two posts that you are illiterate of not only the Ramos and Compean saga, but it fact of the border it's self among other things I'm sure. The case of Ramos and Compean is not about Ramos and Compean my dear ill-informed and illiterate child. It is about right from wrong, and the Rule of Law. It is about an agency that has in the past ran roughshod over not only this border area, but of it's inhabitants Civil Rights. It was in part this roughshod and the agency's mindset that they could operate with impunity which has resulted in the many restrictions now placed upon the agency's operations. In my opinion many of these restrictions are far reaching and in fact have done less to restore the Civil Rights of those residing here, than they have to protect those of a lawless nature. However Dawn these restrictions came about more through the callas actions of the agency, and silly ass stunts such as Ramos and Compean committed than did they through other means. While I doubt that you are actually interested enough in this case to do so, I would suggest that you read the now available trial transcript and you would have a much clearer understanding of the bumbling idiots which Ramos and Compean are, along with the other such present at the scene with them on that fateful day. But you are not about learning, nor gaining knowledge, and more about simply swallowing hype spoon fed you by even those less motivated to know and to understand the truth.
Good day! (Posted on March 8, 2007, 10:18 am John)
- Dawn, it would appear from your ranting here that your panties may be in a bunch, check that out would you. Then stroll your confused little mind over to the book store and get some learning, because it's quite apparent that you are in need of such. It's dimwitted persons such as yourself Dawn that our Country, this border included is in the state it's in. The content of your two posts here are nothing short of non-factual hype, and based solely on what you 'thought you read in my posts, and what your confused mind has gleaned from media reports. Once you finish high school drop on back here and I'll be glad to carry on an exchange with you. Now go straighten those panties out!
(Posted on March 8, 2007, 10:18 am John)
- By the way John.... WHAT THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT A BORDER PATROLMEN TO DO WHEN THEY COME UP AND SEE TWO MEN WITH GUNS IN THEIR HANDS???? Sit there and chat with you??? I hardly think so.... get a grip dude... YOU HAD A DAMN GUN IN YOUR HAND... What are you??? Braindead??? Hell you are lucky your ass even walked away from it.. That in itself is showing aggression... Free Ramos and Compean... next time take John into custody for refusing to listen to our officers when they tell him to put the gun down...
FACT... You just proved a point John... our border patrolmen DON'T go half cocked with weapons or your ass would be dead!!!
I believe your ass should have been sent up the river for the ... what was it you said??? CRAP you pulled...
FACT... You have NO right what so ever pulling guns out... Who the hell do you think you are??
FACT... These men got paid to protect us...
FACT... You are an IDIOT that tried to be John Wayne...
Go to a different country already... would ya??? You are seriously misguided in your theories...
FACT... You tell people to read this and that... be upset about this and that... WELL YOU WEREN'T AT THE SCENE!!!
FACT... YOU pulled out a gun and NOTHING happened...
FACT... John you are more full of it everytime you post....
let's free these men already.. throw the REAL criminals in prison... and kick out some of the SO CALLED americans out to the country they seem to want to live in... impeach Bush... Imprison ALL involved in endangering us by giving Davila immunity... by the way...
FACT... John you have never once said the name of the man you trust so much... THE DRUG SMUGGLER OSVALDO ALDRETE-DAVILA... say it out loud... we can see you support him... FACT...DAVILA... DRUG SMUGGLER...
FACT...OUR GOVERNMENT GAVE HIM A FREE RIDE WHILE IMPRISONING OUR BORDER PATROL AGENTS.. (Posted on March 1, 2007, 3:34 pm DAWN)
- John shut your mouth already!!! YOU WERE NOT PRESENT WHEN ANY OF IT HAPPENED!!! Two of our border patrolmen are being held prisoners while a damn drug dealer runs around doing what ever he pleases... but obviously you dont take that into account... Now either you are friends with Bush and Sutton or you are a drug dealer yourself who is more than willing to put all lawmen in prison so you can roam the streets filling OUR streets and kids with drugs... SHAME ON YOU!!! QUIT trying to sling mud at our citizens!!! I would like to see how Bush and Sutton would like to be in prison and getting beaten... after all.... they have done way worse than shooting a drug dealer in the ass... which by the way there is NO PROOF WHAT SO EVER that the bullet even came from Ramos... That drug smuggling ass probably got shot by someone he owed money to... or hell even his own mother... Bush allows our patrolmen to stay in prison.... and Sutton had them brought on charges and ALL OF THEM allowed him immunity which allowed his ass to come into the United States and bring even more drugs in... hence the 1,000 pounds he brought in and didnt get arrested for because he was a so called star witness... the true crime here is that Ramos and Compean are in prison.... and JOHN... YOU NEED TO BE DEPORTED!!! you are obviously NOT a TRUE american!!! Everyone... lets say the name out loud....Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila.... THIS IS THE DRUG SMUGGLER THAT OUR GOVERNMENT ALLOWED INTO OUR COUNTRY TO ENDANGER ALL OF US... OSBALDO ALDRETE-DAVILA WAS GIVEN IMMUNITY to testify AGAINST our own border patrolmen... next time you want to talk smack John... MAKE SURE YOU AREN'T SCARED TO SAY THE NAME OF THE MAN THAT YOU ARE TRUSTING!!! JOHN WELCOMES OSBALDO ALDRETE-DAVILA with open arms.. just like OUR VERY OWN GOVERNMENT DID... NO MORE TRASH TALKING OUR LAWINFORCERS!!!! trust me John... you are proving how much you care for drugs more than fellow Americans.... FREE RAMOS AND COMPEAN (Posted on March 1, 2007, 2:53 pm DAWN)
- Nobody but nobody feels worse about Ramos having been attacked and beaten while in the custody of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. I also doubt if anyone holds the Border Patrol, the OIG and the USA Office in greater contempt than myself after the recently released facts that they all lied, and covered up the truth behind the events surrounding the charges these agents were convicted on. Ramos and Compean are far from being heroes in all of this, but it certainly appears now that others involved in this cover-up and railroading of the two, have in fact committed far worse crimes than the two of them.
For shame on the whole stinking bunch!
John (Posted on February 12, 2007, 9:46 am John)
- We need compassion for our border guards? Well the mexican mafia doesn't think so. Ramos was beaten down by a group of MEXICAN inmates last weekend on the yard. (Posted on February 6, 2007, 4:59 pm name withheld)
- I believe the answer to your question would be: > Please note ''any person'', it does not state ''any citizen''. Simply because a person is not a citizen does not make them any less a person.
While you believe the casings were picked up because it was believed at the time that no one was hit, is not a very good answer as to 'why' Compean picked up his brass. Did he in fact have a history of picking up his brass concerning prior events? Is he in fact some sort of environmentalist? What was the ''reason'' is my question and to include such supporting facts as they may be? I might also add that as the event has been reported Compean picked his brass up 'before' he gave this supposed oral report to his Supervisor. Clearly as I have stated before, this reported fact of him having done so would have altered the crime scene should he and Ramos have had any thought of reporting the supposed assault on Compean by the suspect.
I'll now address your 'fact' list which you have supplied one at a time starting from the top and working down: The amount of shots fired be it 15-16 by the prosecutor's count or the 5 or 6 by the count of the two agents really doesn't much matter. However if I were put in a place of having to decide which account was more believable I'd probably have to go with the prosecutor's count, given the fact that at least one of the two agents had altered the crime scene, and that both had failed to file the required report of the event. Your next 'fact' is largely open to debate as to exactly what point you are making, even if it should in fact be true? This next fact you bring up has to do with the three jurors. It is in this area where I feel the two hold a good chance of getting this verdict set aside as I have suggested prior. Your next 'fact' has to do again with the jury, but unlike yourself I have no other confirmation that your statement here is correct, and in fact as I have pointed out prior, your statement makes little sense. Had the jury the day before the final vote was arrived at had voted 9-3 for acquittal, why then would the final vote and verdict not have been in keeping, instead of 12-0 for guilty??
Your next 'fact' has to do with this supposed arrest of the suspect yet again. I say supposed because I have yet to read any confirmation regarding this claim. In fact the AUSA is on record as denying any truth to it. If you have such confirmation please posted it here because I would certainly like to see it. Next fact has to do with supposedly the suspect changing his story on the stand. Here again, if true would be in the area of the appeal process. Next fact concerning the same thing with the BP agents, if true it will be covered in the appeal. Concerning the Sup. and this supposed oral report given him. Have you conformation on this? As I read it you state that this information concerning this supposed oral report came from Ex-agent Ramos, consider the source. Your next to last 'fact' is that the prosecutor supposedly made the statement that ''it's my lies against your lies''. So? Did she make these claims in Court, or was it in a setting more conducive to that of a friendly conversation or to knowingly back off some attorney that wasn't above stretching the truth, as most lawyers aren't? And now to your last listed 'fact': If true, like I have said prior, they probably ought to think about new representation for their appeal.
John (Posted on January 4, 2007, 9:17 pm John)
- AMENDMENT XIV Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868. Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment. Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
Please show me in the above amendment that anyone in thie country illegally has rights??? he was not born in the US and was not a naturalized citizen... You mention the casings and the three other BP agents.
I do believe the casings were picked up because no one thought the drug runner had been hit. If one keeps on running away like nothing happened, until this person comes forward, how is anyone to know. The three border patrol agents who gave testimony have also admitted to lying about their statements. Ramos even said in testimony that the three of them were not even near when the incident happened. and then when they got there, they didnt go to see if him or campeon were injured or anything. and it wasnt until one of these agents saw cuts and some blood on campeon that he asked if he was okay. that i read in Joe's letter which i did get open. it looks to be the same thing that he posted in the middle of December and i can not say that i learned anything new that i did not already know by picking apart his webpage, which is pretty good. The three agents have admitted in court that the statements that gave in march, september, and october were lies. The fact that the supervisor was on scene and given an oral report, according to ramos, was a report and that should be it. when the supervisor said that campeon did not want to file assault paper work, the super was relieved as that meant he would not have to notify the FBI and sit around all day doing paperwork. that was on one of Joes many links.
in regards to rights, the prosecutor referred to 4th amendment saying that by shooting him it violated his civil rights. when the 4th amendment has nothing to do with rights, but has to do with illegal searches and seizures. and since he left the van and ran, then they have the right to see what was in the vehicle since hes long gone and not likely to come claim it.
FACT- the prosecutor told the judge and jury that the agents fired 15-16 shots at the drug runner as he was escaping. Ramos and Campeon claim only 5-6.
FACT the prosecutor also told the agents "you turned on one of your own people"
FACT three jurors have come forward with affadavits complaining about juror misconduct and harassment.
FACT the jurors had a 9-3 acquital vote one day and the next day it was 12-0 guilty, after the foreman comes back into the room and says the JUDGE talked to him and he says "we will not leave here without a verdict" sounds like 9-3 is a majority of the vote and if the harassment would not have taken place, the trial might have ended in hung jury
FACT the drug runner while under iinnuminty and before the trial even began, was caught in Oct of 05 smuggling 1000 pounds of pot into the US at the SAME LOCATION.
FACT he was arrested and the arrest papers were put into a sealed indictment and this information was never passed on to the judge, jury, prosecutor or defense.
FACT the drug runner on the stand changed his stories at least three times.
FACT the three other BP agents have admitted to lying on the stands in regards to the statements they gave.
FACT the supervisor who took the oral report, who was also at the scene, did not want to call the FBI and did not get reprimanded for this, ended up with a promotion.
FACT the prosecutor has been reported as saying when she goes into court "its my lies against your lies"
FACT the prosecutor argued and got pertanent information from the defense not admitted to the trial, (IE the phone calls between the two mother in laws) (Posted on January 4, 2007, 7:18 pm james)
- James glad to learn that you had visited the mentioned web site. Hopefully you will be able to down load Mr. Loya's letter because I believe it's probably the most actuate account of the event this far, which the public has access to as yet. In the meantime I'll touch on a couple of points concerning your latest post: You have ask,when does known drug runner out weigh the word of an officer of the law? Quite simply James, when shell casings are picked up and a proper reporting of the event was not filed. Plus the fact that the known drug runner had other sworn officers apparently supporting at least part of his claims. Trust me James I share much of your displeasure with the results of this trial and the fact that this drug smuggling scumbag skated. However scumbags beat the system every day, in fact probably ever hour of the day due in large part to errors, mistakes which officers and other persons of the Court make, or because they had a good lawyer that was well versed with every loophole they're is. I'll mention but one case by initials alone, OJ. You lead by example. Our law enforcement officers of this USA are not drug running, Alien Smuggling scumbags, as to they are not cold blooded killers. In most respects they are highly trained and professionals as compared to many parts of the world. And James they are held accountable, and I cringe of the day at which they are not.
It appears that along with gaining much of your knowledge of this case from the web site which is in place to ''free Ramos'', you also have relied on the reports of Sara Carter and those of Andy Ramirez. Andy Ramirez I believe to be nothing more than an opportunist and a money grubbing one at that. As to Sara Carter and her apparent great interest with this case, I can only surmise that since she and the paper which she writes for hale from Ca. as does Ramirez, that there just might be some form of a nexus there? You also made mention of Bonner. Mr. Bonner I believe is the head of the NBPC, the union which represents the Border Patrol agents which are members. Strangely however I don't recall seeing much out of Mr. Bonner concerning this case until it gained a large amount of public attention, well after the two had been convicted last Spring, did you? In fact I could state the same with Ramirez.
Touching on your last point: ''He is an Illegal, he has no rights''. Contra James. As per the amendment below ''he'' enjoys much of the same right which you and I do, once ''he'' is here. Why do you think they come?
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
(Posted on January 2, 2007, 9:46 pm John)
- John its funny that you should mention freeramos.blogstop.com as that is where i have done the most reading. though i have also read the testimony given by andy ramirez on the friendsoftheborderpatrol websight that he gave at the el paso border hearings this past summer. it has like 12 pages at the end in regard to this case. i have also spent time reading the articles that sara carter from the Ontario Calif. newspaper has written. She has wrote more than a dozen or so articles. The letter which you mention that the father in law wrote anad was on the websight, i did download but for some reason i can not open it and will have to keep trying to see it. Most of the things i have read have been through all the above mentioned places. On the ramos websight, posted about the middle of the month, there is a post from Joe saying what happened and i do believe that it states the supervisor was there and they did give him an oral report. and apparently as long as one makes a report in writing or oral, then its a report. The fact that the mexican turned US citizen turned BP agent in wilcox might have more loyalty to his childhood friend before his job as an agent is why i bring this person up. In the andy ramirez written statement at the el paso hearings. he even brings the smae question up and asks the same thing. the words about the 9-3 acquittal verdict are on the video on the Ramos sight in the john and ken radio show. this 9-3 vote came from andy ramirez who mentioned in the video that he has read the testimony of the trial, so i tihnk he knows what hes speaking of and i would not think he would be lying about something as this. TJ Bonner has even gone on national TV and said the same thing. when i saw the sight last night its that video that has been reposted on 1-1-07, its towards the end of the video so check that one out. This agent in Wilcox, did not call the el paso PD, he called the border station where these two guys worked and asked about it. In the above mentioned post on freeramos, there was a post in the middle of the month by Joe and he even says in this post that the wilcox agent did the things that i had mentioned earlier. calling and not getting any answers then doing some kind of search on BP and found the bust and the amount. its there. i wouldnt and couldnt make something up like that. I am not claiming the oral report. the friday before christmas, campeon was on the john and Ken show out in LA after the rally with Cali. rep Rohrabacher and he said on the radio show that he did give an oral report to his supervisor who had arrived to the scene after the incident. Why did they wait till a month later to go to the sight and do any kind of investigation??? A COUPLE of things i find as being funny but disturbing is this....... when does the word of a known drug runner have more truth than the words of any law enforcement official especially when the drug runner changes stories three times on the stand? The prosecutor, Kanof, says that his civil rights were violated, but since he is illegal he has NO rights in this country.... and her statement about violation of the 4th amendment rights in regards to shooting this drug runner in the buttocks?? um the 4th amendment is in regard to search and seizures. what does that have to do with shooting? the fact that the prosecutor said " he was just going back home to his sick mommy" makes me sick. yeah right, hes going back to bring more pot into this country to be sold to the youth of america. I DO believe these guys should not be going to jail, but unfortunately the jacka$$ that lives at 1600 Penn. avenue is not going to step in and do anything, but he can pardon 6 people in prison for drug offenses. what is wrong with this picture??? (Posted on January 2, 2007, 2:47 pm james)
- James brings up some rather interesting points concerning this case, and it would appear that he is fairly well informed about the event, which is good. I too have followed this event via the many news articles dating back to when they were first arrested, long before the case ever gained the public's attention which it has enjoyed since their trial ended. With that in mind, I made note of some of the information which James included in his post,which I do not recall as having ever seen in those many news articles covering this event. One case in point:
While I was certainly aware of the involvement of the agent from Wilcox and his nexus to the smuggler, I do not recall ever having seen mention made about this agent phoning the El Paso PD and his use of '' some kind of Border Patrol tracking system'' ?
As well as the information he supplied here: >
I do not recall seeing mention made of the jury having been in favor of acquittal the day before the verdict was reached? In fact this information which James has supplied tends to be most confusing in light of the final outcome of the trial. It would seem to me that if in fact Jame's assertion was correct with a vote of 9 to 3 for acquittal the day before that would have been the verdict reached instead of a guilty verdict?? In fact I believe much of James statements and accounts here to be more non factual and confusing than anything else. As with Jame's post here, much has been made of the agent from Wilcox relationship with the ''smuggler'' and of his involvement of having seen this event was looked into. Perhaps the agent did in fact grow up in Mexico and was a life long friend of this person turned drug runner. So? What bearing does that being fact hold on Ramos and Compean's actions and the fact that they were tried and convicted? Surely if the suggestion that perhaps this agent from Wilcox was somehow involved in the drug smuggling business that the government, the Border Patrol and the OIG has looked into that suggestion, with apparently nothing coming of it? Even so, had this agent from Wilcox have been found to be knee deep or up to his eyeballs in the drug smuggling business, what bearing on the actual event and the outcome of the trial would that supposed fact if so, hold? None.
In light of James suggestion that folks should ''get their facts straight'' I'd suggest that he go the Free Ramos web site and to view Joe Loya's letter and account of the actual event which he reportedly sent to Congress. Mr. Loya is the father in-law of ex-agent Ramos and apparently by his account has spent considerable time investigating the actual event in support of his son-law and ex-agent Compean. Clearly his findings would then tend to reflect the two agents in the best light which could be arrived at? Reading through this letter, his findings of the event I found most interesting. His findings clearly state that ex-agent Compean with shotgun in hand, had tried to grab hold of the fleeing smuggler as he had attempted to run past him, and that he had in fact lost his footing and had fallen of his own accord to the ground, during his first encounter with the smuggler. In his account of ex-agent Ramos and his having fired one shot at the fleeing smuggler, he states that after Ramos had fired this one shot that the smuggler kept on running and disappeared into some brush. It was at that time that Ramos had watched and waited for the smuggler to emerge from this brush, but with this act not taking place Ramos had then joined with Compean and had walked back to where other agents had gathered on the levee. It was from there that later they all watched as the smuggler finally emerged from this brush and had ran ''across the dry riverbed'', and had then fled into Mexico in a van with two other people. This account is interesting with the statement: ''Across the dry riverbed''. If in fact this dry riverbed was that of the Rio Grande and therefore the boundary between that of the US and Mexico, it would appear by this account that the brush which the smuggler had been hiding in after having been wounded by agent Ramos was in fact in the US? Mr. Loya also makes mention of the fact that ex-agent Compean had picked up his shell casings, but sadly offered no explanation as to why Compean had did so? My belief on this fact of Compean picking up his shell casings is that the two agents had made a decision early on that the event and discharge of their weapons would not be reported. I say this because if in fact they were intending on filing the proper report, or even this ''oral report'' which James claims they made, Compean having picked up his shell casings would have altered the scene and he would have known this, and he would have been in deep doo-doo for having done such with those who would have conducted the investigation of the event.
Clearly this is a troubling and concerning event for all involved. You will note that I have not referred to the ''victim'' in this case by anything other than the drug runner which he was/is. I refer to the ex-agents as idiots because I hold both of their actions in great contempt concerning this event, as well as other facts which the public has lightly been made aware of, but which I have chosen not to air in my views of the case, because as with the Wilcox agent they hold no meaning of the case it's self and of the outcome. The drug runner will no doubt receive a very large settlement from our government (taxpayers) in regards to his $5 million lawsuit. However in fact he himself will never end up with much or any of it because the Cartel and his lawyer will see to that. In the end he'll be back crossing loads and eventually he'll be just another dead body found in a ditch or street in Juarez. As I made mention of earlier I believe this case will be righted through the appeals process, because I believe in fact both agents were wrongly charged and convicted for the wrong crime. I do not believe for a second that the two found themselves on that riverbank with the intent to commit a crime. I believe they found themselves their while attempting to perform a job and duty assigned them, and operating under a policy by a government and agency which has failed at every turn, based upon the misguided thinking that enforcement by interdiction alone will ever amount to a hill of beans on this border. I believe Ramos, caught up in the heat of the moment, having heard gunfire and finding his partner laying on the ground where he had either fallen or had been knocked, and then seeing the flee smuggler had in fact simply assumed that his partner had probably been shot. I believe he fired thinking this. I believe Compean to have never really aimed the many shots he had fired with the intent of actually hitting the smuggler, I believe his gunshots were merely his being frustrated at having the smuggler get the best of him and that he was simply venting and speeding the smuggler on his way with some shots fired over his head. You might ask, why do I believe? Because that would be believeable for myself...and probably everyone of those people who sat on the jury, had this in fact been the way the event actually took place and or had been presented to them. Instead and due at least in part by poor guidance by the two's attorneys they went before this Court and jury with the weak statement that they ''thought'' they saw something that they ''thought'' was a gun. That claim may in fact have held with the agency's shooting review team, had the shell casings not have been picked up and a proper report filed. However I find it most weak after the fact, and in a Court of Law. In fact it teeters on ''in your face'', we ''thought'' therefore we were justified in shooting at the person, and picking up our shell casings. For myself with what little I know of the event, the only real crimes these two idiots committed was in not making it known to any and all law enforcement departments and agencies on both sides of the border that shots had most certainly been fired at a fleeing suspect, that may or may not have been wounded. In the end,at the end of each day in a Country upholding and adhering to the rule of law, human life is human life be it a drug runner or lawman, least the Rule of Law cease to exist and we forget right from wrong. A pardon of the conviction of these two I feel would be in error prior to allowing the justice system to run it's course, and to right which may be wrong with the case thus far. We as the pubic are judging this case solely on the media reports and perhaps our dislike for drug runners over that of respect and fondness of law enforcement. I am certain that we are not apprised of the full testimonies and other evidence which was presented during trial, and we would be short changing the system and all of those involved to simply set their findings aside based upon our ''feelings''.
These calls, these pleas for people to flood the White House and Congress with letters and phone calls seeking a pardon before the system has had it's fair chance I believe to be premature, and if in fact a pardon is not granted could in the long run harm the chance of these two ex-agents receiving one at a more fitting time.
John (Posted on January 2, 2007, 10:01 am John)
- according to the articles i have read the agents filed AN ORAL report with their supervisor who arrived at the scene after the incident was over. But with an oral report given and the supervisor saying you dont need to file a written report, what were they supposed to do. Now its been said in one article i read was that he did not want to report this to the FBI because it would take too much paper work and too many hours to do it.
Its funny that the Prosecutor in this case said the civil rights of the mexican drug runner was violated...umm excuse me, but hes not an american citizen so how can any rights be violated. she also said they violated the 4th amendment of the constitution. However that amendment has to do with searches and seizures. How in the heck does that have to do with this illegal drug runner and violating any amendment? the search was done after the slimy piece of crap had escaped in another van in Mexico and was long gone.
John after reading your last post i have to think you are stupid for using the ramos and campeon saying your glad it wasnt them and saying, but i disagree with you that they do need a parole., Hell in fact they should have never been charged and they would not have been charged if it was not for the drug runners mother in law calling the mother in law of a border patro lagent in ARIZONA who then called the el paso office asking about drug seizures on the day this incident happened. then after not getting any answers he used some kind of border patrol tracking system which finally allowed him to find the drug seizure that day. after that he called a dept. of homeland security office of investigative general (OIG) who then tells the OIG where to go in Mexico to find the drug runner. and tells the drug runner not to say anything until immunity is offered. Oh yeah did i tell ya, the agent in az. is a childhood friend of the drug runner. he was born in mexico and migrated to the US, became a citizen and works at the BP in Wilcox.
The fact that three jurors, not two have come forward with affadavits claiming juror harassment and misconduct should send a warning flag up to anyone. so should this....the day before the final verdict came down, the vote was 9-3 acquital. the next day you had one juror who said "next week is spring break and ill be damned if im going to be here" the jury foreman came back in after talkign to the judge and said "under no circumstance will be leave this room without a verdict" after informing her the vote was 9-3. HE said the judge said this, however, there are reports in the media that she did not say this and as a judge is not allowed to say anything like this. The fact that while the drug runner was on immunity, he was arredted in November 2005 smuggling in another 1000 pounds of pot. This arrest is under sealed indictment and this information was never passed on to the judge, prosecutor or defense. The fact that he lied under oath in the trial is also subject to arguments. its said he changed his story THREE TIMES while on the stand. it should also be noted that three other BP agents were given immunity for testimony and they also admitted that the statements they made before the trial in APRIL, SEPTEMBER, and OCTOBER were lies and they admitted it on the stand also. it sounds like people who have posted here do not know the entire case, have not read all the reports or articles on this, have not seen and read the testimony or listened to the two agents on the radio telling the story.
Oh yeah, how about the prosecutor telling the two agents "you turned on one of your own" How is that possible? the prosecutor refused to allow the aforementioned phone calls be made known in the trial and the judge sided with her. in fact the judge has apparently sided with the prosecutor on most everything and admonished the defense on their same motions. so get your facts first (Posted on January 2, 2007, 12:00 am james)
- In response to the poster, I can only assume that you are speaking in general terms of the Border Patrol or perhaps even more blanketed as that of the entire array of U.S. law enforcement by referring two these two idiots as ''hero's'' ? Clearly this pair not only violated policy but in fact state and federal law through their actions. These two Patrol agent's at time, did not wound this person without realizing that ''they'' had done so. You will get no argument from me at all that the person whom they shot was probably a total scumbag ( judgment made by viewing a photo of him) however at the time of the shooting they didn't know he was a total scumbag. Let me enlighten you just a bit on border crime and law as compared to that of the interior: The fact that this person was driving a van which apparently had been determined to be smuggling a load of narcotics (weed) across the border, does not in it's self make this person to be that of a total scumbag. For all intent and promises a drug runner yes, but not a total scumbag. The two are in fact of large difference here on our South West border. Often these drivers of these narcotic loads as well as the human mules which transport the stuff via pack_pack on foot are not scumbags at all, but instead people with family members either being held hostage or a clear threat of death for themselves or family should they not transport the dope. Sadly many such people find themselves caught up in this battle waged daily along this border between that of the Cartels and US law enforcement. Keeping that thought and fact in mind it casts even more burden and expectation that law enforcement (such as with these two ex-agents) and anyone else, make certain that a threat does in fact exist before blazing away at one of these persons, fleeing or not. Simply because someone has ''something shinny'' in his hands does not arise to a level where deadly force can nor should be applied, least we would end up with many more such shootings of people with a comb, cell phone or a host of other such items the general public are known to carry at times. I do not believe these two agent's account at all that they ''saw something in his hand, which looked like a gun''. In my personal opinion these two ex-agents went to court and tried to defend themselves of the charges placed against them, based upon a false account of the event and the jury saw through it. Their defense sadly was pretty much based on '' we saw something which looked like a gun''. Given the fact and as related by Compean himself, he had physical contact with the subject just prior to Ramos shooting him. Surly had the subject have been armed as the two weakly claimed with their statement of ''something that looked like a gun'', at least Mr. Compean should have been able to state with more certainty that the person had been armed. We are talking about an event which took place midday during daylight hours, not during the hours of darkness where such weak statements would have been more believable. Clearly, had this event have been reported as it should have at the time it had occurred, the scene which would have contained the fresh sign and other evidence along with the fresh accounts of any and all involved, these two idiots would probably have been cleared, if the event did in fact unfold as they have stated. So why didn't they report the discharge of their weapons? I think the reason for this failure was because their account of the event wasn't truthful. I cannot believe that Compean having fired all of the many shots which was reported that he did, without hitting the person at least once? Yet Mr. Ramos arrives on scene and fires one shot....and stops firing. Why did he stop firing, and why only one shot? While he claims that he didn't think he had hit the person, I believe that to be a falsehood on his part. I believe Ramos knew fully that he had wounded the person, otherwise it makes no sense that he would have stopped firing, with the threat of what he felt was an armed drug smuggler still present. Along this border we who live here encounter Border Patrol agents often, just as we encounter those who smuggle Illegal Aliens and narcotics by the truck load and foot guided groups, or Mule Trains. While our elected officials would like the public to think that we ''aren't in a war zone'' here, in fact we are. The Border Patrol needs no probable cause such as other law enforcement to pull a person over in this war zone, they can simply do it on a whim. While in fact I am in agreement with this act, as these stops are performed by officers which display good judgment and common since. Such random stops based upon a knowledgeable agent's good judgment and training has and does save lives, and to take smugglers and load cars off of our local roads. However, with the large hiring spree which took place a few years ago and continues today, sadly the ranks of the Border Patrol has grew to include many that lack both knowledge and common sense. This lack of good judgment on the part of many of these agents is cause for great concern, especially during such stops during the hours of darkness. Often in their zest to bag a load of dope or even a load of Aliens many of these agents cut corners, which can lead to an innocent person being harmed or their Civil Rights being trampled upon. While I have experienced many such events in the remote area where we live, one really stands out. One evening while returning home via one of our remote highways I and a friend had noticed the headlights of a car fast approaching us from behind. Since we were traveling at the speed limit, and since these lights were approaching us so quickly I had assumed the car to be one of two things: either a drunk driver or that of some law enforcement officer. I decided in either case the best thing to do was to pull to the shoulder and clear of the roadway to give whoever it was plenty of room. However as the lights neared us instead of going on by the car pulled in behind us on the shoulder. Although not being able to see the car for it's bright headlights we assumed that it must in fact be the police and at any moment the officer would turn on his overhead lights and approach our car? However several minutes had passed and this did not take place. Being that this section of the highway was in fact very remote and only one or two miles directly North of the border the thought passed through our minds that perhaps the car contained border bandits which are known to operate in this area. With that thought now heavy on our minds after so much time had passed I decided to easy my car ahead, thinking that if in fact it were the police the officer would then turn on his overhead lights. As I started moving very slowly the car behind us did not turn on any lights, but instead gunned his engine and attempted to race up beside our car on the left hand side. As this car did so I myself gunned our engine to abort the car's attempt, and at the same time made a hard turn to the right to make a 270 degree turn so that the other car would be in our headlights. As I was making the turn my friend was readying his 12 gage shotgun. As I completed the 270 and was now facing the roadway and the attacking car broadside on it's right side, we immediately became aware that it was in fact a Border Patrol unit! As I stopped just feet short of it's passenger door in a cloud of dust, the agent on that side was falling out with his gun in hand, although barely. Two agents which had done a very stupid thing then started screaming for us to not move and to show our hands, with guns pointed on us. After a few very tense moments of them screaming and of myself screaming back explaining that both by partner's hands and mine had guns in them with the hammers back, and that we were not going to drop them and take a chance of a round going off, the stand off ended. Thank goodness it wasn't Ramos and Compean huh? As most folks I do not believe these two idiots deserve being sent up for the years they received. However they do not deserve a pardon either for the crap they pulled. I fully believe that if they get rid of the lawyer they have and get abetter one to handle their appeal and stop lying, they could possibly get a new trial. However they do in fact warrant some form of punishment so that other such idiots might not commit the same crimes, and what they did was in fact a crime, not a breach of policy as they and others would have us believe. John
(Posted on January 1, 2007, 2:00 am John)
- I am a Border Patrol Agent. I agree that the Agents messed up by not reporting the incident. They probably thought that even though they were in the right to shoot they could possibly get diciplined or fired after the Border Patrol conducted their shooting incident investigation. They stupidly thought that they did not hit him. The Patrol does not back It's Agents up and supervisors are commonly looking to make themselves look good by "burning" agents. They should have reported it. As far as the "not being able to chase subjects without permission" that is rediculous! We are a law enforcement organization. We do not need permission to chase you on foot. We do need authorization for vehicle pursuits which is done while you are following the suspect via radio. If the US attorney used that as a basis of a conviction then she messed up badly and should be relieved of her position. (Posted on December 31, 2006, 3:06 pm Steve)
- I believe the person who submitted the article probably did so with an honest heart. However I believe the person to have been swayed by all of the media attention this case has gained, and with a clear lacking of understanding of what exactly took place regarding the event these two idiots tangled themselves in. ''Hero's guarding our border'' is much misplaced sentiment regarding the actions of this pair, ''fools in action'' would be much more fitting. If a person looks at nothing else concerning this event, but the fact that Compean took the time to pick up all of his many, many empty shell casings, and the fact that both then ''failed'' to file a report of the event to include shots fired, pretty much tells me the pair had something to hide. Probably the fact that they knew they had wounded the person. Be that as it may, for whatever reason the pair chose to ''clean up'' the crime scene and failed to file the report of the discharging of their weapons, which by the way would have then resulted in an investigation and review of the scene of the event. Which tells me for some reason they apparently didn't want a review of this shooting scene.
(Posted on December 29, 2006, 7:17 pm John)
- I have added this article to Digg in the Upcoming Political News section at http://digg.com/politics/upcoming
The more "digg" votes the article gets, the more people should see it.
Political persecution has no place in this country. (Posted on December 29, 2006, 7:17 pm Flavia)
- I have just added this article to the Digg Web site, in the Upcoming Political News: http://digg.com/politics/upcoming
The more "digg" votes it gets, the more people will see it. So, if you'd like to vote for the article. . .
I, too, have been calling the White House every day and will continue to do so. And I'll add other elected officials. This political prosecution cannot be allowed to stand. (Posted on December 29, 2006, 7:17 pm Flavia J.)
- Also, the agents' convitions were totally unconstitutional because the illegal aliens (like the smuggler in question) are generally not protected by Fourth Amendment. Here is a link to insightful analysis that demonstrates just that:
The Blessings of Liberty
(Posted on December 29, 2006, 3:42 pm A Reader)
- This excellent editorial should be read by every American to inform them of the utter miscarriage of justice in the trial of the Border Patrol Agents Ramos and Compean.
This case is upside down where the heroes are going to jail and the criminal roams the streets free. I call and write to elected officials, the attorney general and the president EVERY DAY to overturn this false sentence of the two heroes!
We the people cannot let these two protectors of this nation go to prison! It is like the Twilight Zone!
(Posted on December 29, 2006, 1:26 pm Robin Hvidston, Upland, CA)
- Of course he pardons Drug dealers ,they have so much in common (Posted on December 29, 2006, 1:24 pm william rolen)